11/17/2007

Why do some Scots talk more about hating the English than loving Scotland ?

I was fascinated to hear some Scots fans in the radio this morning being asked questions about the big Euro 2008 Qualification match against Italy. Most spoke of their pride, some mentioned that Scotland had done the whole country proud, but then some fans just spoke about how they hope Israel will lose to Russia so England don't qualify. I thought I was hearing things. A chance for Scotsmen to talk of their pride in their nation, and some just chose to slag off England.

A colleague of mine who is Scottish recalled to me recently how a bloke in a pub near where she came from was beaten up during the 2000 tournament because he said "Yes" when England scored. Basically, a load of racists Scots took him out and "did him over".

What ever does it say about a nation that some people act like that about their near neighbours, their fellow citizens.

It's nothing new of course. After Euro 96 when England beat Scotland 2-0 there was a widely reported case in Dundee where people were randomly asked for the time. If they had English accents they were then punched.

I know of no problems with Scottish people wearing Scotland tops in English pubs. I would be mightily surprised if I ever came across a pub where there was a problem with Scots in their watching a Scotland game getting abuse from English people, so why is the reverse not true in Scotland.

Most Scots are proud of their nation, but show a degree of compassion and understanding that they accept people for not being Scottish. I just wish the rest would treat the English as Scots are treated in England. So many people in England have their fingers crossed that sScotland will qualify. They play with more pride and passion than the England team and really are a team that shows that the whole is worth more than the sum of their parts. Everyone loves a team like that. Good luck Scotland.

Update : Scotland lost 2-1. Very unlucky indeed. I thought they were the better team by far.

20 comments:

Joe Otten said...

I never really thought much of this until a Scottish co-worker told me how embarrassed he was at anti-English racism; that the idea he should have greater affection for Argentine, for example, than England was absurd.

I have a Scottish grandparent. There are probably hardly any English or Scots who don't have an ancestor of the other lot within 4 or 5 generations. It is madness and self-loathing for the Scots not to return my affection for them.

Anonymous said...

I am a Scot living in England. If you don't think we suffer racism, you are 100% wrong.

wonkotsane said...

I was rooting for Italy. I used to hope that the other home nations would win if England weren't playing but now I realise there's no point - the rest of the UK hates us, why bother with them?

Trevor said...

As an Englishman living in Scotland I can honestly say I have never had a problem. I think it is natural for supporters of a team to want their bigger neighbours to lose. For example most Norwich supporters feel the same about my team Ipswich!

Fishman! said...

"Why do some Scots hate the English?" Dunno! Probably for the same reason some English people hate the Scots. That's fair, right? There are plenty of English people who hate the Scots? Cause sometimes it sounds like the English are at the mercy of a nation of jack-booted racists! Whatever will they do! It must be terrifying! Thank goodness for the stiff upper lip! Personally, I couldn't tolerate it.

Re: the Dundee thing- that's a load if ever I heard one. Was this on a mass scale? Believe me you don't need to be English to get punched in Dundee on a Friday night, but then, it wouldn't get in the papers. Which newspapers published that, I wonder? Could it be the same one that doesn't allow certain columnists to publish their words in Scotland for fear of being labelled 'racist'? I think the attitudes openly printed in some of the daily newspapers in England would shock some people north of the border, but not many.

So, we have learned that this 'racist' nonsense works both ways. Plenty of Scots don't want England to go through and I'm sure there are plenty of English people delighted with the result tonight (shame though, they played great). You wouldn't expect a Spurs fan to support the Gunners would you?

Justin Hinchcliffe said...

As soon as Scotland gets in independence, the better (to put it mildly)

Norfolk Blogger said...

To the Anonymous Scot living in Englang I say to you what would the reaction be if you walked in to a pub in London with a Scottish shirt on when a Scotland match is on compared to walking in to a pub in Glasgow with an England top on when an England game is on.

Now be honest.

I don't deny there is racism in England, but you choose to use that as a justification for Scottish racism towards the English. My view is that there can never be a justification for racism.

Norfolk Blogger said...

A friend of mine ewalked in to a pub in Norwich in his Ipswich shirt after the last Derby. he got no hassle. I wonder what the reaction would be walking in to a pub in Glasgow after an England Scotland game.

Toque said...

I was removed from a pub in Scotland for supporting England against Germany.

The bouncers explained that it was for 'my own safety'.

The pub was festooned with Germany flags and the bar was doing German-themed promotions. This type of thing is incredibly common in Scotland. Anti-Englishness is not only common, it is encouraged and applauded.

Anonymous said...

Fishman! said...
"Why do some Scots hate the English?" Dunno! Probably for the same reason some English people hate the Scots. That's fair, right? There are plenty of English people who hate the Scots? Cause sometimes it sounds like the English are at the mercy of a nation of jack-booted racists! Whatever will they do! It must be terrifying! Thank goodness for the stiff upper lip! Personally, I couldn't tolerate it.

Oh no need to cry just 'cos scotland, (who were going to beat Italy on Friday night), lost to Italy on saturday night! Oh what will they do now? It must be so sad. Thank god for the whiskey piss bottle ah?
The English aren't at the mercy of anyone pal! The English are now, as opposed to before 1997, new labour and devolution, not putting up with the childish mentality from the scottish. Infact, I don't think we're willing to put up with any crap from anyone anymore. That's why it takes the EU and all the rest to hold us back.
As for making it sound like the English are whining, that's funny coming from you, if you're scottish. Very funny indeed. Oh the scots never whine or anything like that do they? For god's sake, they haven't stopped whining about King Edward Longshanks since...well since he was alive. How long is that? nearly 900 years ha! ha!
The scotland manager is demanding that the linesman from they game scotland lost...in the last ten seconds, is dealt with. Dealt with? Why? Scotland lost because of their own imcompetence. Who went up for the header with the Italian goalscorer? Nobody! Anyway,
Compare that to the England manager when England were made to play on an artificial pitch against Russia. (I can just imagine the hot sir generated if scotland were made to play on an artificial pitch) The England manager never blamed the pitch and he certainly didnt demand anyone's head for the loss. He just got on with it. I have to say that i'm glad Russia got their come uppence. It just goes to show that cheating (the artificial pitch) comes back to haunt you in the end.


"the Dundee thing- that's a load if ever I heard one. Was this on a mass scale? Which newspapers published that, I wonder? Could it be the same one that doesn't allow certain columnists to publish their words in Scotland for fear of being labelled 'racist'? I think the attitudes openly printed in some of the daily newspapers in England would shock some people north of the border, but not many"

Yes of course, it's all a figment of someone's imagination. Like that seven year old English
kid who got punched in a scottish
park 'cos he had an England shirt on right? And that English
disabled man. He was wearing an England shirt - He got a black eye for wearing the England shirt. That was in scotland to. A DISABLED BLOKE? Who couldnt even stand up to fight back? Remember? You're such brave men.
There are loads of examples of it. Why are you trying to deny it?

"we have learned that this 'racist' nonsense works both ways. Plenty of Scots don't want England to go through and I'm sure there are plenty of English people delighted with the result tonight (shame though, they played great). You wouldn't expect a Spurs fan to support the Gunners would you?"

Oh is that how you try and get out of it? By saying it works both ways? Ha! ha! Do me a favour.
A scot could wear a scotland shirt in a pub in England, but an Englishman would get crap if he was wearing an England shirt in a glasgow pub. That's because the English have a much more mature attitude. Everyone knows that London is a tourist city. We're used to it. I suppose you're really admitting that the scots are immature. Well, no you're not; you're trying to tar the English with the "racist" brush i.e. "we have learned that this 'racist' nonsense works both ways" No it doesnt work both ways. What do the scots call English people in scotland? White settlers? It doesnt work both ways.
The English are not like the scots. That's the trouble with scots. They have to be noticed and especially in England. Oh yeah gotta make a noise. The trouble for the scots is the English don't care that they're scots. This really gets up the scots arse! Ha! ha! In other words, the scots are insecure. They're especially insecure when dealing with the English. Which is why the scots hate what they call the upper class Englishman, i.e. Englishmen like Jimmy Hill. Go on admit it? You know i'm correct. That's why the scots are forever going on about the English north south divide. That is why they hate Tim Henman. Oh but then they forget to mention the Glasgow Edinbugh divide. Or the Highland Lowland divide. Or that the Orkneys are Norse; not scottish. Blimey, youse lot are hypocrites. Oh I couldnt have cared less who won the scotland Italy game.

Tristan said...

Sadly this also happens in parts of Wales...

I will admit to a certain glee when the Welsh are defeated at rugby by a minor team, but that's payback for them being too good in the past ;)

I've always supported England first, then the home nations (usually Ireland above the others) and then the underdog. I'd prefer to see Wales beating most other teams than the other way round.

There's friendly rivalry, and then there's the nasty side which comes out amongst some sections of the nationalist population in other parts of the UK.

Fishman! said...

To Anon (a few posts up)

Unfortunately, sporting passions often make way for way for deeper feelings of resentment on forum boards etc. Nothing wrong with giving the other side some grief, but there isn't much need to go any further...whichever side you support.

"The English are not like the scots. That's the trouble with scots."

This is the kind of attitude I was talking about. I haven't seen any Scottish, Welsh or Irish going mad with this kind of stuff here. Unfortunately, there has to be someone who lets the side down for England. What on earth must the wider world think? Maybe it's because that with a larger population comes an increased possibility of such outbursts?

I'm not going to tell you which nationality I am (or even if I'm British) because I don't think that that should have any impact on what I have already said.


"In other words, the scots are insecure. They're especially insecure when dealing with the English. Which is why the scots hate what they call the upper class Englishman, i.e. Englishmen like Jimmy Hill."


To be more serious, I have lots of English and Scottish friends, none of whom seem insecure as a result of where they were born. Both nationalities are pretty proud of their nations and achievements etc., and rightly so. I have never known an Englishman assaulted for being English nor a Scotsman for being Scottish. That doesn't mean it's never happened, just that the majority of people in the UK don't care to get so obsessed over issues of nationality to go so far as punching someone. Have you ever been punched by a Scotsman? If so, are you sure it's because you were English?

Norfolk Blogger said...

My Scottish friend (with English parents, but with a strong Scottish accent) made the point to me though that she was going to watch Scotland in a pub in England and knew she would have no problems. But her father could not watch England in Scotland in a pub because it would be dangerous for him to do so.

Fishman! said...

I'm sorry, but I just won't accept this. I understand your concerns but information gained through a third party like this shouldn't be taken as fact.

You can't really believe that no England fans were allowed to watch the England match in Scotland for fear of violence? It's just not true.

All the England fans in Scotland were cowering behind locked doors the other night, fearing for their lives at the hands of angry Scots who are unable to control their hatred for England? C'mon. Lest you be inclined to believe it, the Scots are just as intelligent sensitive as the rest of you.

I'm sure there are parts of London where you run more risk of getting attacked for wearing an England top than in Glasgow, right? Gosh, you might even get shot...

Norfolk Blogger said...

I think you made some good points in your first comment Fishman, but your second comments are very naive.

Fishman! said...

Maybe I'm being a little OTT with my comments, but I really find the idea that Scottish people think so much of the England football team that they are driven to random acts of violence a bit silly.

I am fully aware that there are nutters in any city. The exception does not prove the rule.

If some bloke is attacked in London for being gay for example, does that mean that England is not safe for gay people? OTT again, I admit, but that's the level of argument being made by some people here.

It's something that the tabloids like to whip up when they think they have a chance of selling papers on the back of the OUTRAGE! bandwagon. And it seems to work.

I urge people not to pay attention to newspapers who are not intersted in what they tell you, only that you give them your money. They exist on the manipulated emotions of their readership.

It's sad, but I think some people want to believe that they are hated because it justifies their own frustrated anger.

That's not naive.
Thanks for the time.

Norfolk Blogger said...

I guarantee you one thing. If you were in an Egnoish pub when italy scored in the alst minute on Saturday most people would have been feeling sorry for Scotland. Do you honestly feel the same would have happened in Scottish pubs when England lost tonight ?

Fishman! said...

Well, to be fair, I really don't think most people would mind one way or the other. Scotland were already out. Pubs certainly weren't full of people going nuts. There may have been a few people quietly content though! Maybe a few evenings brightened. There's no reason why Scotland should support England and no one in Scotland expects the English to support them in football, do they?

I couldn't say how English people reacted when Scotland went out, except for my mate from Kent who was pretty chuffed, mainly because he knew it'd annoy my friend from Dingwall! Neither ended up smashing each other's brains out though. They can both give as good as they get. Not many people on the blogs I read were feeling sorry for Scotland when they lost!

No luck for any of the home teams now though. Regardless of what we hate or love, we're all in the same boat when it comes to the beautiful game at this stage!

Anonymous said...

Fishman

You can't really believe that no England fans were allowed to watch the England match in Scotland for fear of violence? It's just not true.

Nobody stated that! Nobody! You're a liar! It is a known fact that sweaties are insecure when it comes to England and English folk! It's common knowledge. Everyone knows it. So, the obvious question is why are you so obsessed with denying it?

fishman stated:

All the England fans in Scotland were cowering behind locked doors the other night, fearing for their lives at the hands of angry Scots who are unable to control their hatred for England? C'mon. Lest you be inclined to believe it, the Scots are just as intelligent sensitive as the rest of you.

You're pathetic!

"the Scots are just as intelligent sensitive as the rest of you"

So you're not scottish or English then?

fishman stated:

"I'm sure there are parts of London where you run more risk of getting attacked for wearing an England top than in Glasgow, right? Gosh, you might even get shot...

So what? We're not discussing "some parts of London" and what does this have to do with scotsman beating up seven year olds for wearing England shirts? Nothing at all!
Get shot? Oh yeah but the shooting doesnt involve English people.

fish stated

"I really find the idea that Scottish people think so much of the England football team that they are driven to random acts of violence a bit silly"

A bit silly? Ask the seven year old who was thumped because he was wearing an England shirt. Ask the disabled English bloke who got a black eye because he was wearing an England shirt.
Or aren't they random acts of violence to you?
A lot of scots are obsessed with England. That's why they go out and buy shirts of teams England are playing. If that isnt obsession I dont know what is.

Duncan87 said...

As a Scot I'm afraid I entirely agree with Norfolk Blogger.

- I've worn a Scotland top in an English pub with no problems

- I've been in an English cricket club when a Scotland match was on without any aggro. They weren't exactly cheering their lungs out for Scotland, but the mood was indifferent rather than obsessed about Scotland's opponents winning

- When in Trafalgar Square I noted with interest a Scottish Tourist Board office with a large Saltire flying outside. To all the 'oh but England are racist too' brigade, do you honestly think for a second such a shop, with a St George's cross, would survive in George Square FOR ONE AFTERNOON with its windows intact??

By contrast, every time I've watched England play foreign opponents in Scottish company, there is a definite undercurrent of unpleasantness that cannot be explained merely by hatred of the 'English meeja' or harping on about 1966. For example, branding the entire nation 'scumbags' in front of an elderly English man. Yep, real civilised humourous 'banter' there!

It's the pack mentality, no fellow Scots are allowed to disagree or else be branded a 'traitor'. Personally I think the traitors are those who cared more about Croatia winning on the Wednesday than their own country winning on the Saturday. Curiously, survey after survey, conducted anonymously, find that 50-65% of Scots DO support England against opponents other than Scotland. Perhaps a slight exaggeration of figures, but maybe not as much as the sheep in the pubs would care to admit. Maybe some are afraid to speak out.

I'm not going to pretend this is some serious social problem or that it never happens the other way, but my examples illustrate the different attitudes between the two nations. The English don't support Scotland like they used to but they don't obsess about them getting beaten weeks leading up to the match either. The random acts of violence are just that, random, but shouldn't be dismissed either. Silly me, I forgot, any article that paints Scottish football fans in a bad light is a 'conspiracy by the English meeja'! I'm not making this up - this was the actual response of the pack on the old BBC Scotland boards after the 7 y/o boy and disabled man were attacked. In addition, responses along the lines of 'they were asking for it'.

And to those who think it's the result of 300 years oppression and that independence would change our attitudes, just look at the Irish! If anything they are worse than us.

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